Dr. Patrick Lee: 'A Catholic Speaks at the Glenn Beck Restoring Honor Rally'
We must not place choice and autonomy above God-given unalienable rights
'We must not place choice and autonomy above God-given unalienable rights. The culture that emphasizes autonomy to the exclusion of truth is a denial of the most basic principle upon which our country is founded, namely, all human beings possess an equal and inherent fundamental dignity, and no class of human beings can with justice enslave, use, experiment on, or deliberately kill, other innocent human beings for their own purposes.' (Dr. Patrick Lee)
PrintWASHINGTON, DC (Catholic Advocate) - (Editors Note: We obtained permission from Catholic Advocate to publish this address given by Dr. Patrick Lee, the John N. and Jamie D. McAleer Chair in Bioethics at Franciscan University of Steubenville. Dr. Lee, a philosopher, is one of the emerging voices assisting us all in our struggle to confront and expose the insidious and inhuman lie which fuels the Culture of death so that we can replace it with a new Culture of Life. He is a faithful and gifted Catholic Christian. He spoke at the evening event which was a part of the "Rally to Restore Honor" in Washington DC, called by Glenn Beck.
Dr. Lee obviously believes, as do I, that we should join with all who recognize the challenges we face as Western Culture collapses around us. I reported on that Rally because it was newsworthy. Thousands read the article I wrote entitled "Glenn Beck's Rally to 'Restore Honor' Gathers Half a Million Americans, Makes History" Some readers responded with negative comments. A few were upset that a Catholic Site covered the event because Glenn Beck is a Mormon and a former Catholic. I know both of these facts. I would welcome any opportunity to share the fullness of the Christian faith, as found within the Catholic Church, with Glenn Beck - should the opportunity present itself. I would hope to bring him home to the Catholic Church into which he was validly baptized. I am well aware of Mormon doctrine. The theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS, Mormon) cannot properly be classified as Christian.
However, as in any authentically Interreligious (not ecumenical, which pertains to work between Christians) cooperation, I will work with anyone who shares the principles which can form the basis of a truly free and just society. Those principles include a respect for the dignity of every human life, the recognition of the two parent, marriage bound family, as the first society, and the understanding that authentic freedom must always be exercised in relationship to the truth and brings with it obligations. Some readers find such a willingness to collaborate to be offensive. Dr. Patrick Lee obviously does not. His speech is an example of how a Catholic, well trained in Catholic thought concerning the Natural Law, can help to shape a much needed effort in the West. He should be commended and emulated. Deacon Keith Fournier)
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Dr. Patrick Lee: 'A Catholic Speaks at the Glenn Beck Rally'
"For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the life of good deeds that God has prepared in advance . . ."
There is a struggle in our culture today between two visions of the world and our place within the world. On one side of the struggle, many people-especially many in the mainstream media, and in the elite places of government and academia-believe that the supreme good is autonomy or choice, and emphasize this to such an extent that they tend to deny any objective meaning and value in the world.
Each of the speakers tonight selected a text to comment on. I selected Ephesians 2:10: "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the life of good deeds that God has prepared in advance, that we should walk in them." This text challenges us to rededicate ourselves to basic truths about God and our place in the world.
These people believe-or tend toward believing-that each of us has the right to fashion for himself what will be meaningful and valuable. On this view, there is no inherent meaning and value that we must adhere to. And so, on this view, it is a matter of choice who is and who is not worthy of respect and protection of our laws. It is a matter of choice that we can use or dispose of some human beings for the benefit or convenience of others.
On this view too, it is simply a matter of choice what marriage will be-whether it is between a man and a woman, whether it is between two or three, five or seven-because on this view marriage does not have an objective nature.
And on this view, since autonomy is more important than anything else, and public expressions of religion make some people uncomfortable, we have no actual duty to express gratitude in a public manner to a transcendent Creator.
But there is another vision of the world-and that is the vision that we are here tonight to represent and forthrightly proclaim. This is the vision expressed in the text from St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians. "For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the life of good deeds that God has prepared in advance, that we should walk in them."
This text clearly affirms three things: First, God has created the world, ...
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Bulbajer. We know the locations of Jerusalem,Israel,Bethlehem,Galilee,and thousands of other citys ,towns and lands in the bible Keep us posted when they find anything and I mean anything backing up the Book of Mormon.You saying you should just believe and have faith is the usual standard defence the LDS church puts forth for the tripe sold by their church.
You know, Mgm, a religion doesn't really have to have archeological evidence. Religion is not about facts, it is about spirituality and beliefs that can't be dealt with by science. Religion and science are compatible, but they are not the same.
Do not worry about Becks Mormon faith as an intelligent guy he's got to be having second thoughts .Check out youtube.The Mormons post videos that have to be seen to be believed.The one i like the best is where the risen Christ descends from Heaven and lands on the steps of a known Mayan pyramid under construction by the you ready for this the lost tribes of Israel who had sailed to North America three thousands years ago.Mormons will not discuss this on radio or TV they have no archaeological evidence to back any of the claims put forward in the Book of Mormon,This has to be working on Beck.
Dan: It has been my hope to present to the Catholic mind the thought that what the Church teaches IS compatible with the concept of "American liberty." If I have done so with some measure of "eloquence" then I return the 'thank you' for thinking me so. What I have written, whether thought eloquent or not, is the result of my faith in what both the Church teaches and what "true" history tells us, and not some privileged insight of my own. I hope not to consider my pursuit of the truth at an end. To that purpose I have recently acquired a number of books from the Acton Institute that I believe will reconcile to a certain degree "libertarianism" with the teachings of the Church. I cannot but hope that "free will" is inherent to both.
Thank you, Pete Brady, for your eloquence and your information. I used to be very much a Jeffersonian libertarian, but more and more I realize that libertarianism and seperation of Church and State, even in the more conservative sense, simply is not what the Church has always taught. I believe that we are fighting by the devils rules if we shudder every time we are accused of violating the seperation of Church and state. We end up like dogs chasing our tails in circles, trying to fight the symptoms of the problem (gay marraige, abortion, etc.) without addressing the root of the problem (the rejection of the social kingship of Christ). Until we recognize Him as King, we will never have a just society.
Bulbajer: Strict definition of "theocracy" is "God" is head of the state or society. As such "heaven" would be a theocracy. Here on earth, the Roman Curia qualifies as a "theocracy." Elsewhere in the temporal order, the Islamic world is likely a theocracy, but more likely would be called an "ecclesiocracy."
"However, that does not mean that God's law should necessarily influence civil law; they are two distinctly separate ideas." This is a particularly distressing notion to have, particularly for a Catholic. I would address it just to you, Bulbajer, but I think there are other Catholics out there who also trek down this "separation of Church and state" road. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "eternal law --- the source, in God, of all law" CCC 1952. All law! St. Augustine expressed eternal law as "(t)hat law by which it is just that all things be most perfectly in order" and "(t)he divine reason or the will of God commanding that the natural order of things be preserved and forbidding that it be disturbed." St. Thomas Aquinas spoke of the eternal law as "(t)he exemplar of divine wisdom, as directing all actions and movements." Father Austin Fagothey in his book, "Right and Reason," says that the eternal law "as applied to creatures () is called the natural law." Natural law guides all creatures to their end. Where the natural law is applied to non-rational creatures it is the natural "physical" law, and when applied to the rational creature, man, it is the natural "moral" law. The relationship is underscored by St. Thomas Aquinas when he says "(t)he natural law is nothing else than the rational creature's participation of the eternal law." Since the natural rights of man come from the natural law it is difficult to see how their just and secure preservation in civil law can be posited as being produced by "two distinctly separate ideas." I have often heard it said that the height of human arrogance is found in the postulation that man should think that he is the only intelligent being in the universe. The height of human arrogance, however, would be to posit that man could create and establish "civil law" that surpasses what God has given, for that is the supposition and design of "distinct and separate." If our positive law is to be "distinct and separate" then it inevitably will not deliver justice and peace.
Bulbajer: I am a huge fan of Jefferson. But I think you put too much stock in him in the current topic. Perhaps you ought to look a bit at what Pope Leo XIII wrote. Here are a few excerpts: (1) "When God, in His most wise providence, placed over human society both temporal and spiritual authority, He intended them to remain distinct indeed, but by no means disconnected and at war with each other. On the contrary, both the will of God and the common weal of human society imperatively require that the civil power should be in accord with the ecclesiastical in its rule and administration." The Reunion of Christendom (1894) (2) "It would be very erroneous to draw the conclusion that in America is to be sought the type of the most desirable status of the Church, or that it would be universally lawful or expedient for State and Church to be, as in America, dissevered and divorced." Catholicity in the United States (1895) (3) "Just as Christianity cannot penetrate the soul without making it better, so it cannot enter into public life without establishing order... If it has transformed pagan society --- and that transformation was a veritable resurrection --- for barbarism disappeared in proportion as Christianity extended its sway, so, after the terrible shocks which unbelief has given the world in our days, it will be able to put that world again on a true road, and bring back to order the states and peoples of modern times. But the return of Christianity will not be efficacious and complete if it does not restore the world to a sincere love of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." Review of His Pontificate (1902) (4) "For, to reject the supreme authority of God, and to cast off all obedience to Him in public matters, or even in private and domestic affairs, is the greatest perversion of liberty and the worst kind of Liberalism." Human Liberty (1888) (5) "Take away the supremacy of God, who judges right and wrong, and law necessarily loses its paramount authority, while at the same time justice is undermined, these two being the strongest and most essential bonds of social union. In the same way, when the hope and expectation of immortality are gone, it is only human to seek greedily after perishable things, and every one will try, in proportion to his power, to clutch a larger share of them. Hence spring, jealousies, envies, hatreds, the most iniquitous plots to overthrow all power, and mad schemes of universal ruin are formed. There is no peace abroad, nor security at home, and social life is made hideous by crime." Christ Our Redeemer (1900) (6) "There was a time when the philosophy of the Gospel ruled the States. In this epoch the influence of Christian Wisdom and its Divine Wisdom penetrated the laws, institutions and customs of the people, all the categories, all the relations of civil society. The religion instituted by Jesus Christ, solidly established in all dignity due it, flourished everywhere, due to the favor of Princes and the legitimate protection of the magistrates. In this time, the Priesthood and Empire were linked with a happy concord and the friendly exchange of good offices. Organized in this way, civil society gave fruits superior to all expectations and its memory persists and will continue to persist, and no artifice of its enemies will be able to corrupt and obscure it." The Christian Constitution of States (1885)
Bulbajer: Have read the Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom. Besides having, in Section 1, the longest running sentence I think I've ever encountered, what point do you think was being established?
And to both Pete and Dan: if you could, please read the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. Although it alone can not discount the other documents Pete cited and the numerous documents that mention support for God and Christianity, I think it might be close to what I was trying to say.
Pete, I guess in that sense America was a Christian nation. The thing I dislike about that is that it gives Christians a higher place in society. And some of the quotes you cited mention that Christianity is part of the law, which I thought qualified for theocracy. "Christianity is part of the Common Law..." "... the Christian religion was engrafted upon the law..." "The Christian religion... is recognized as constituting part and parcel of the common law..." What is your definition of theocracy? And regarding homosexuality in the military, I have not spent any time in the military, so yes, that makes your opinion on that matter higher value. I will defer to those who serve. Dan: your first question is very difficult to answer. I would say no, that if a citizen had to choose between obeying God and obeying the civil law they should obey God. However, that does not mean that God's law should necessarily influence civil law; they are two distinctly separate ideas. I think a state ought to follow some moral principles, and since we are both Christians, we can assume that those morals are God's. But the more specific morals, where you start to go into separate religions' beliefs, should not be in civil law unless the country is a theocracy. If peole choose to disobey the law of God, they will answer to Him. Whether they will also answer to the state depends on the crime. Your second question: Catholics should not disregard their faith in voting, no. But anyone has a civil right to vote however they want. We Christians should express our Christianity in every part of our lives, but, well... let me put it this way. I'm thinking of the letters Paul wrote to the various Christian communities. These Christian communities were, for the most part, not in control of the areas they lived in. They were minorities, sometimes persecuted (the persecution would increase later). The Christian communities didn't have any say in their local civil law. Thus I don't think Paul's directions to them about conduct, morals, discipline, etc. apply to civil law. If we encounter a person sinning, should we try to show them the light? Yes. But not by use of the law. Use of the civil law to enforce religious morals almost always results in disaster, unless the country in question is almost entirely made up of Christians. The USA is not that case; there is too much diversity. Finally, yes, I know, I am probably not being a good Catholic by saying all this. I am speaking my conscience. Maybe my consciene is corrupt; I'm just saying what I feel. I don't blame you for taking the church's words over mine. Maybe someday I will feel that I was wrong, but for now, I'm pretty sure that allowing civil law to be influenced directly by Christian morals or morals particular to any religion(s) would be the wrong thing to do, simply because we are America. It won't work here, not today. Maybe somewhere else. Maybe in the future.
Bulbajer, Regarding the post I wrote in response to Brandy, to which you responded by saying that we are not a Christian country, I should add one thing. When I wrote about rights coming from God, I was refering to the Declaration of Independence, which states that all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, etc. It is a founding principle of the United States that rights come from God, not the state. I then merely came to the only rational conclusion, that if rights come from God, nothing which God prohibits through divine revelation could possibly be a right. The founding fathers would have to agree. If the state does not have a right to deny a God given right, then neither does it have the authority to declare a right out of a prohibition.
Bulbajer, I do realize that we are not a theocracy. Having said that, I want you to think honestly about the secular ideals that you are defending. Tell me first, in your opinion, does the states authority supercede the divine law? That is, does Caesar outrank God? Because, if you presume that the state has the right to disregard the divine law in forming the civil law, that is essentially what you are saying. Is God the creator of only the believers? Does His authority end with them? Second, do Catholics have a right to disregard their faith in voting and governing? Does Christ's kingship over us apply only to our private lives or are we bound to acknowledge Him as Lord in all our doing? Is it not blatant hypocracy to set aside one's faith and the commandments of one's Lord in our public life? Finally, if you answered that the civil government is not bound by the divine law and that Catholics don't need to be Catholic in their public life, tell me what we are to make of all the papal encyclicals and Church documents to the contrary. Tell me why your new, enlightened, watered down Catholicism is better than the faith that Holy Mother Church has held throughout the centuries.
Bulbajer: Regarding homosexuals serving in the military, I think it important to know whether you were in the military. I spent 21 years in the U. S. Navy as a single seat, carrier aviator. I believe that provides me with a certain amount of essential perspective on the subject.
Bulbajer: Again you get wrong. You imply that to be a "Christian country" means a theocracy. It does not. No "theocracy" ensued as a result of the Constitution of Pennsylvania stating, "And each member, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz: 'I believe in one God, the Creator, and Governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked." These words were also found in the state Constitutions of Vermont, South Carolina, and Tennessee. Justice Joseph Story, a Founding Father, appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court by James Madison, and acknowledged as "Father of American Jurisprudence" said, "One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is part of the Common Law.... There never has been a period in which Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundations.... I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society." John Quincy Adams said, "The Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth....[and] laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity." The Supreme Court of New York in "Lindenmuller v. The People" (1860) stated in its decision that "All agreed that the Christian religion was engrafted upon the law and entitled to the protection as the basis of our morals and the strength of our government." The Supreme Court of Arkansas in "Shover v. State" (1850) stated in its decision, "The Christian religion... is recognized as constituting part and parcel of the common law..." And in "Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States" (1892) the U.S. Supreme Court declared, "There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning; they affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons: they are organic utterances; they speak the voice of the entire people.... These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." A CHRISTIAN NATION!
Dan, America is not a Christian country. Our laws may have similarities to certain Christian morals, and may be partially rooted in them, but we are not a theocracy. I don't want to get into a debate about whether marriage is a right, but homosexuals should be able to serve in the military. There is no reason why they should not be able to do so.
Brandy, there is no inalienable right to gay marraige, or for gays to serve in the military, or for gays to be able to adopt children. God forbade homosexuality. If rights come from God, then it's obsurd to suppose that a person has a God-given right to disobey God. That's not hate; it's the truth.
Well, Brandy, there is no "right" to a wrong. Or do you propose that there is a "right" to adultery? It's not "hate," it's called tough love. The only bigotry I most often see displayed when it comes to "gay rights" is on the part of the LGBT crowd towards Catholics and others who will not yield when it comes to living an upright moral life. It is precisely "compassion" and "love" that I am displaying when I refuse to accept as "normative" the homosexual act which in the unrepentant person keeps them from the ultimate good, eternal life with God. When you describe a right as "unalienable" you are speaking of "natural rights." Homosexuality is not a natural right. If you are speaking of the right to marry, that is denied no one as "all" are free to marry another person of the "opposite" sex. Or are you not "fully informed" in/of the Catholic faith?
Brandy - I'm afraid it is a little of both. Ignorance and self righteousness. But most Christians ARE compassionate. The Bible states that it is an abomination. We do NOT hate the sinner. It is the sin that we hate. But since we are all sinners, we do not have the right to judge anyone.
As Catholics and/or Christians, how compassionate are we to protect the unalienalable right of gays? There's so much bigotry and hatred toward this groups, that it makes one wonder why are most people hateful, is it ignorance or do we see ourselves as perfect and rightous???
Montag - Then I suppose all the Romans, Ephesians, Collosians, etc were also seeking Caesar when St. Paul was inspiring them to come to God. Get real! Go troll somewhere else. I will not waste any more time with you.
Some of you spew this "christian" love around like you know what you are talking about. "IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" "YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" That's your rule to judge.......use the above statements from the ultimate judge to make your decisions and observations amen
I know some people who went to the rally: Glenn Beck, Glenn Beck, Glenn Beck. They sought a man who would inspire them, not a God who would inspire. They seek Caesar.
Vance: you're quite welcome. Good luck in heaven! Ok. On a more serious note, I didn't take the replies from JoAnn McFall and Dan and throw them away. They both make good points; my short reply was because I don't think I have the debating skills to challenge them on their points without repeating myself. One of the reasons I go on this site (indeed, the reason I came here in the first place) is to offer my opinions, admittedly. But a more important reason is to learn. If I chose to consider everything thatI agree with and throw out what I didn't, then... what's the point? But anyway, I'm glad you feel you're benefitting from my comments, even though it's not quite in the way I expected.
Bulbajer: This is interesting. You have been offered excellent replies from the above comments but I don't see you as someone who wants to be educated or convinced. Rather you are here to challenge the faithful and that's good because we need to be on our toes. Thank you for your anti-Catholic bigotry and ideology. It gives us a good workout.
To Bulbajer: You're welcome. God Bless You!
To Barb: Nancy Pelosi and all the other "Catholics" in Washington that are NOT living their faith need our prayers desperately. Power and money are now their gods. When Nancy visited our Holy Father in Rome, he did speak to her, especially about abortion. Apparently, she has her own agenda right now. That's why they all need our prayers. I hate what they are doing to our country but I do pray for their conversion. They are in God's hands.
If Glenn Beck is a heretic, what would we call Nancy Pelosi? A Catholic not only espousing abortion, but the American tax payer footing the bill? She promos homosexual marriage and flys off to Rome to visit the Pope. Confusing times. To Mr Grimes and anyone else that says Glenn Beck spews hate. Whatever! If you are going to throw stones perhaps it would benefit your purpose to be more specific. Give us a quote, a particular broadcast. I listen to Glenn and have yet to hear anything hateful. Is it because he hates what our country has become? Is it because he hates the ideology that is harming our freedoms? That makes him a hero in my eyes!
JoAnn NcFall and Dan, thank you both. Judy Schmidt, I agree with you about Mormons.
To; Carol Klotz - If anyone can, Mary, Our Mother can. As you say, pray, pray, pray!
To Dan: I like that "tough love" bit. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Thank You for this article. I was hoping the Catholic Church was represented at the rally, I did see a priest in the pictures. I did not know Glenn was baptized Catholic. It is just a matter of time, he will come home. We just give him to Mary, his Mother she will bring her son home. I thank God for Glenn, he is waking up the dry bones. Pray, Pray, Pray.
I do not understand the hatred of the Mormon religion. I have read the book of Mormons and they are Christians. They just believe God appeared to them in America to start their Christian church in America. As to the Glenn Beck hatred, again I do not understand. Here is a man who was an admitted sinner who found Christ thru the Mormon faith and a good wife. He now wants to bring truth about America back to Americans. We consider our nation founded on a Judao-Christian principal. Last I heard Jews did not think Christ was the messiah but await the messiah yet we give out hatred of the Mormons. I think Notre Dame this past year was willing to cover or take down all religious symbols to accommadate Pres. Obama. A decision I as a catholic founds very offensive but we object to Dr. Lee speaking at a God filled Restoring Honor rally. Perhaps we need to examine our own values.
Bulbajer, sometimes people need "tough love." Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and a lot of other so-called Catholics are whistling as they skip marrily along the road to Hell, and a lot of Bishops seem to want to hold their hand and encourage them along their way rather than restrain them. Their reception of communion is a sacrilege committed agains the body and blood of our Lord, and, as the scripture says, they eat and drink judgement on themselves every time they receive communion. Therefore, giving them communion is not loving them; it's hurting them and it's showing contempt for God's word and His most precious body and blood. To everyone else, it doesn't matter if the Founding Fathers, whether the Catholic, the Protestants, the Deists, or the Freemasons among them considered their work to be divinely inspired. What matters is that the Constitution contains many good Catholic things and a few that are contrary to the Holy Faith. There's no doubt that God's providence did encompass the founding of America and that the Founders were mostly men of good moral character. That's not the same thing as saying that God positively inspired every word of the Constitution, even the ones that contradict that Catholic Faith.
To Pam: Well said. I don't know if you are aware or not but Glenn was baptized in the Catholic faith and has a Catholic education. Which probably is the reason he sounds more Christian than other Mormons. I believe he is well aware of who God is and who Jesus is. I don't know if you saw his TV show when he was explaining the difference between collective salvation and individual salvation but as a priest in my parish who also likes Glenn, said "Glenn was right on." Of course, as you know he was trying to be all inclusive at his events last weekend of which I have great admiration for what he is trying to do. We must stand together as Christians and Americans no matter what denomination we belong to. (Oops ending with a prepsition) As Glenn said, "The war is already won, we just have to choose sides." Also, as he says,"the perfect storm is coming and it is not going to be very pretty."
To Bulbajer: I understand exactly why you feel that way. But you have to consider that the Catholics that have excommunicated themselves from the church are well aware of what the church teaches. They are the teachings from the beginning of it's creation by Jesus Himself. For some reason or another, they reject some of the teachings because it does not fit their lifestyle. They may be pro-abortion, believe in embyonic stem-cell research or euthanasia. Knowing what the church teaches on those dogmas, they choose to leave. They know they are always welcome back to the church but choose not to return. The church does not love them any less. But, I believe that if you are going to be a Catholic, be a Catholic. You just don't believe in some things and not others because it is inconvenient to their present lifestyle. Regarding families still loving and accepting their own is not quite the same. There have been families that disown their children too. Also, these dogmas are not meaningless traditions. These are direct teachings from Jesus Christ. The church cannot change them. They have an obligation to teach them. The only traditions the church has the authority to change are traditions that the church has adopted ie. not eating meat on Fridays during Lent. As far as ex-Catholics saying that the church is hateful, those things are as old as time. When people do not agree with something or someone because they want to do it their way, they will always criticize. Like I said, the church always has open arms and loves the fallen away and they know it. They just choose another path to follow. Jesus said, "The way to salvation is a narrow path" Some people want something a little wider. I am really enjoying our conversation. I just hope that I am explaining the church teachings to your better understanding. Please excuse any typos.
As I understand from the Bible, everyone who is a member of the human race is "made in the imagine and likeness of God." From this perspective, every person deserves a certain respect, including Glen Beck. (Indeed,though he professes to be Morman, he is moving toward the Christian religion--maybe even Catholic, considering that he's reading and agreeing with the Pope!) When each of us appears before God, we will all get our just deserts--Until then, God is patient with all of us--allowing us the time we have to live togther and to come to know him, love him, and serve him in this world.....Our nation is founded on Christian principles that have allowed us all to live together in peace, upholding the natural law ordained by God--the Ten Commandments--in a unique form of government that doesn't impose any specific religion on anyone. But now, we are definitely, at a turning point, where all who still profess to be among "a religious people" (words of our Founders) must unite together to reaffirm those "unalienable rights" and the "natural law" values that are being not only attacked, but their opposite imposed upon us through illegitimate laws. Now, because no positive law that contradicts the natural law is legitimate for a people of "religion;" a united response like that of our founding fathers is called for. Glen Beck has been studying our founding fathers and documents and brought together the largest assembly of such people as our Constitution was made for, for the common cause today, but if we go biting at one another (recall St. Paul's words to the Corinthians) rather than uniting on the common ground we have, we will all be subjected to a form of government that will indeed perish in a comparatively short time because of its corrupt nature. (Indeed, we see it coming in new corrupt laws being imposed on us already....) And now, the Islamic religion is an alternatives that has arrived on the scene--to resolve our problems...? God save us all!!!
JoAnn McFall, thanks for your explanation of excommunication. But my point is that leaving it up to the lost sheep to find its way back or to have a revelation by the Grace of God is a bad bet. The sheep will be much more likely to return to the Church if we just kept our arms open to them. You see lots of ex-Catholics writing about how awful and evil and hate-filled and buried in meaningless tradition the Church is. They're wrong, but maybe they wouldn't have left in the first place (or at least wouldn't have developed so much hate for the Church) if their fellow Church members had shown a bit more understanding. The Church is like a family, right? Well, take Alan Keyes for example. Dr. Keyes is a well-known Christian conservative. When his daughter expressed pro-choice views, of course he was very upset, but as far as I know he still accepts her as a member of the family, even though he fiercely disagrees with her and prays for her. What should he have done?
To John Grimes: If you would refer to Pete Brady above, he has cited a Catholic founder - Charles Carroll.. Also Catholicism began when Jesus instituted Christianity.
Vance: Don't look now, but I think your right-wing anti-establishment zealotry is showing. It's always sad to see people like you regularly drum others out of what you suppose to be the Catholic Church. Since I know how much it rattles those addicted to the noise on American talk radio to hear or read any opinions contrary to their own, I never become alarmed by such smug presumption. And, while I don't have a consistent problem with them or you, I do fear them when they are manipulated by a deceitful demagogue like Beck. Their notions are often intellectually bankrupt when not downright silly, but a mob is always dangerous.
To: Dr. Patrick Lee: Thank you so much for accepting Glenn Beck's invitation to speak at the "America's Devine Destiny" program 8/27. I was so priviledged to personally hear your inspiring address.
To Michael: Thank you. To Bulbajer: Excommunication is not a permanent status. And, it is not the church abandoning them. It is them abandoning the church. If the person endorses abortion for example or any other of the 5 non-negotiable teachings of the Catholic church, yes, they are excommunicated by their own actions because they are not in communion with the church. BUT however, they can easily return with repentence and observance to ALL teachings of the church.
Thank you Catholic Online for a great article. Grimes and Nestor: Again nice try but your Liberal establishment fanaticism exposes who you guys are. I've read your comments on many other articles. You guys have a consistant problem with any person or issue that runs counter to the Liberal Establishment. Monica said it correctly. You guys are a couple of Non-Catholic trolls who are spewing your ideology of hate and division in the hope that you just might pick up a few converts. Sorry it AINT HAPPENING!
Mary C: What exactly do you mean by " hate, bigotry, misrepresentation, and giv[ing] all Christians a/o all people of faith a bad name"? These are rather broad epithets that to my mind in no way apply to what I have said here. Do you think Mr. Beck is not a heretic? If so, why? Be specific. Also, you say you think that Beck's description of the Constitution as divinely inspired " is not necessarily 'correct' as we Catholics understand the term." Oh, and there is then in your mind a valid meaning for "divinely inspired" other than the one the Catholic Church teaches? (Notice that none of the three 'authorities' cited above by Ms. McFall to buttress this strange notion was Catholic.) Your final comment about persecution of Catholicism in this country leaves me at sea, not sure at all why you said it. At any rate, most people know that Catholicism 'flourished' rather well in Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Poland, and other lands even before our Constitution was penned.
For almost 150 years from its founding America considered itself a "Christian" nation. References to God prolifically abounded in our political and legal documents. Glenn Beck, "formal heretic" that he may be, is trying in my estimation to restore God to the political conscience of a determining number of the great American constituency. But more than that he, and perhaps Dr. Patrick Lee, would like to see a sense of the "transcendent" once again also figuring prominently in our political conduct. Would we not be providentially better off today if a vastly greater number of today's politicians subscribed to these words of John Adams?: "[S]uch compliances... of my honor, my conscience, my friends, my country, my God, as the Scriptures inform us must be punished with nothing less than hell-fire, eternal torment; and this is so unequal a price to pay for the honors and emoluments... that I cannot prevail upon myself to think of it. The duration of future punishment terrifies me. If I could but deceive myself so far as to think eternity a moment only, I could comply and be promoted." Would that not a few of our "pro-choice" or "personally against" Catholic politicians be likewise so "terrified!"
Whether or not the founding of our nation was "divinely inspired" is a choice of words that can be hacked to death. What did the Founders think? I invite all to consider the following words of Benjamin Franklin to the Constitutional Convention on June 28, 1787 as a possible answer to that question --- "Mr. President: The small progress we have made after four or five weeks close attendance and continual reasonings with each other --- our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ayes is, methinks, a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the human understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom since we have been running about in search of it... In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights, to illuminate our understanding? In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?" /// I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proof I see of this truth --- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the Sacred Writings, that 'except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel: we shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and byword down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war, and conquest. /// I therefore beg leave to move --- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."
My recommendation to the readers is to not spend your time wondering how minds can be so crusted by prejudice that they have no way of recognizing the light of truth or reflecting the rays of redemption, forthright honesty, or sincere contrition, much less trying to compassionately respond to them.
JoAnn McFall, you said it best. That is the way I see this as well.
It must have been difficult for Charles Carroll to have worked with all those "formal heretics," the Founding Fathers, who may or may not have thought that their work was "divinely inspired" but did, in fact, acknowledge their Divine Father with these words in the last sentence of their Declaration of Independence: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." Sacred honor. Huge words. Words fraught with great meaning to the Founders. They pledged this "mutually." Meaning they joined together. And it should be well noted that the only Catholic among them, Charles Carroll, found sufficient cause in what they had declared to also affix his name, his life, his fortune, and his "sacred honor" to a document that the entire world still marvels at to this day. I am of the opinion that he, Charles Carroll, would stand alongside Glenn Beck today to restore that "sacred honor" to these United States.
To Deacon Keith Fournier & Randy Sly: Thank you for the wonderful reporting of Glenn Beck's rally and the "Devine Destiny" program he had the night before. It was refreshing to read the only honest & non-bigoted report of the events.
To Dan: Regarding Sarah & Glenn; they may be fallen away Catholics but I blame that on insufficient knowledge of the Catholic faith. If a Catholic REALLY knew what our faith is all about, I don't believe for one moment they would leave it. But even though they are our separated brother and sister, they did not leave God, they left the Catholic faith. Nor did God leave them, He never will. He loves all His children, the wretched sinners that we are. As for the Constitution, I believe that it was devinely inspired because it was written on the teachings of the Bible and Jesus Christ and Christians believe that the Bible was devinely inspired. "I have so much faith in the general government of the world by Providence that I can hardly conceive a transaction of such momentous importance (as the framing of the Constitution) should be suffered to pass without being in some degree influenced, guided, and governed by that beneficent Ruler in whom all inferior spirits live and move and have their being." Benjamin Franklin "The adoption of the constitution will demonstrate as visibly the finger of Providence as any possible event in the course of human affairs can ever designate it." George Washington "I regard the Constitution as the work of the purest patriots and wisest statesmen that ever existed, aided by the smiles of a gracious Providence...it almost appears a Divine interposition in our behalf.." Daniel Webster
1) Mr. Nestor and Mr. Grimes and those who would wish to fill these comments with hate, bigotry, misrepresentation, and give all Christians a/o all people of faith a bad name, you are lucky your comments are being allowed on. Actually, I think we are all lucky in the sense that much more good has come from the responses of those who clearly oppose those ideas. I remember a stress conference where the instructor asked us to think about the immediate, knee jerk reactions we have to situations and to ask ourselves, "What don't I like about MYSELF in this?" It took a while, but it is actually true, so I offer this to Mr. Nestor and Mr. Grimes. 2) I agree that Glenn's description of a 'divinely inspired' Constitution is not necessarily 'correct' as we Catholics understand the term. In reading 'The Five Thousand Year Leap', however, I do agree that our Founding Fathers were the right people, in the right time at the right place, and were men of virtue whom the Lord used to study philosophies and world governments and Scripture, and develop the best known system to articulate and preserve the [person]al rights which He has endowed on each one of His children. Thanks, though, Dan, because I did not know and will research more about government called to profess Catholicsm. 3) Inasmuch as Catholics have been persecuted in this country since before its official founding, and I am paraphrasing here, even DeTocqueville could observe that Catholicism could flourish nowhere else as in this country.
Thank you, Dan, for that moment of accurate and calm reflection. I would only add one comment to your paragraph. Mormons are, as you say, not really Christians, but many, Beck among them I believe, claim that title. And, on the basis of what you say here, I want to say that I have not cast a vote for a Democrat at any level of government since the mid-1980s. The one Democrat I did vote for then was a pro-life candidate for Congress. Lately, I've given up voting entirely since neither party comes even close to acceptable from the POV of a practicing Catholic. (I too find Beck frightening.)
I think both sides are going a little far in these comment posts. No, Mormons are not Christians. Yes, we need to be charitable. No, we shouldn't idolize formal heretics (that's not meant to be an insult; it's objectively what Beck and Palin are). Yes, we can all stand together on issues like abortion. So, let's calm down a bit, everyone. The problem here is that Catholics are falling too easily on either side of the American political fault lines. Not every plank on the GOP platform is consistent with our faith. That is NOT, however, AN EXCUSE TO VOTE FOR PRO-ABORTION DEMOCRATS. What's scary to me about Beck is his rambling about the "divine inspiration" of the U.S. Constitution, an idea which is pure nonsense. Our Constitution is probably the best, or among the best in the world, but to say that it is divinely inspired is simply contrary to Catholic thought which recognizes that even the government is morally bound to profess the Catholic Faith. That's not a popular doctrine to talk about these days, or ever in America for that matter, but it's the truth that has been articulated by Pope after Pope, and it cannot simply be washed away because we like our Constitution.
I think we should all pray for Mr. Nestor. I have been watching Glenn Beck since he was on CNN and I think he is intelligent, open minded and kind. I have never found him to be offensive, I am Hispanic. The one being offensive is Mr. nestor by trying to spread such negativity and false claims against him on this particular site.
Stephany: You need to read more Catholic history. If you choose to, it won't be long before you come across the Church's ancient injunction to shun heretics, a measure designed to protect the faithful from possible contamination and consequent loss of their immortal souls. For someone like you who says she doesn't like "labelling," it must be terribly hard to listen to the near-lunatic rants of Mr. Beck, I mean all those epithets he regularly spews at his perceived political enemies. Wouldn't you agree, Ms Stephany?
I'm not a fan of Glenn Beck or his rally, but I have to say something abou the comments made by Ed Nestor and John Grimes, people I often agree with in discussions on Catholic Online. Ed Nestor - you appear to me to be a bigot. "They don't even believe that Jesus is God." Wow. What a reason for fiercely disliking a person (or group, for that matter). I disagree with Mormon theology, but I respect Mormons and their beliefs. I also consider them to be Christian, but that's getting off-topic. Christian or non-Christian, they deserve respect. nd yes, I know the LDS has had its share of controversies. So has the Catholic Church. And also, please remember that however passionately you or I may believe in something, it does not cost too much to be civil. We often forget that, with myself being no exception. John, I think shunning people who leave the Catholic church is just about the worst thing one can do. What does it accomplish? It leaves the person feeling unwanted and unloved, and it is certainly not a good example for others considering Catholicism or being brought up in it. This is a problem I see in excommunication; instead of abandoning people who sin, we should embrace them and love them. Then they're much more likely to rejoin the flock. And think about it; we're all sinners.
Great article. The "Restoring Honor" rally was great - such an inspiration to see so many people come out and defend the goodness that we must all strive for. Of course, the media tried their best to paint everyone as angry, racist, hatemongering... the usual media nonsense. The event was a lovely experience and full of polite, tidy and good-hearted people.
If only Dr. Lee would be interviewed by the main stream media! Major kudos for Glenn Beck and Fox News to help spread the truth. Naysayers don't like to hear to the truth. Liberals want the government to meet all of there needs. Kudos for Catholic Online to cover the event at the Lincoln Memorial. The democratic party has no respect for the unborn, no respect for pro-life catholics, no respect for traditiional marriage, and is trying to blind Americans with their version of "social justice". Glenn Beck and Dr. Lee are doing more of God's work than, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and Kathleen Sebelius combined. Stop the abortions! PS- Vote Conservative
I'm guessing by Mr. Nestor's ugly comments that he is NOT a Catholic and rather a "troll" lurking on this website. Clearly he has not watched Mr. Beck's show, and if he has, is unable to understand it.
As a Mormon, I appreciate the sentiments of Deacon Fournier. He points out that progress can be made in our collective struggle against evil, when we work together despite doctrinal differences. People of faith need to unite, put aside differences, and combat the degrading influences of secularism together. We showed the strength that can result from joining hands in our battle against same-sex marriage in CA. If it were just the Catholics, just the Mormons, just the Evangelicals, or just the Jews alone working to pass prop 8, prop 8 would have been defeated handily. But, because we united behind a common value, we won and made the world a better place for our children. Sometimes we need to back up and widen our perspective on the battles being waged in the world right now, and realize that all people of faith, be they muslim, mormon, catholic, jew, hindu, protestant, are on the same side of the fence. Since this is a Catholic website, I need to take the opportunity to express my profound respect for the Catholic faith, and the great people it has produced.
Ed Nestor, are you capable of posting on this website ANYTHING that is not politically motivated?
So we should "shun" Glen Beck and Sarah Palin???. WOW, the judgemental and sanctimonious attitudes are striking. One dares to wonder what Jesus thinks of our attitudes. We have a treasure in the Catholic faith. Far too many so called catholics treat it like an old shoe. Others treat our faith like pompous snobs. The remarks about the "right wing gurus" , and labelling of people is embarrassing. One suspects it has more to do with political idealogy, not Christianity. The "left wing gurus" too often stand for issues that are against Catholic teaching. Is the same standard applied to Mr. Beck and Mrs Palin applied to thosewho are avid supporters of abortion, same sex "marriage", embryonic stem cell research, etc????? Somehow, this reader would find that difficult to believe. Maybe God used Glen Beck and Sarah Palin to get our attention. The hurricanes, fires, floods, storms, tornadoes, and other " disasters of nature" have not seemed to do that. We don't own God. As Catholics, if we are so proud of our faith (and I am) should start be living it. They should know us by our love and the way we conduct ourselves and speak and live our lives.. Wouldn't you agree, Mr. Grimes and Mr. Nestor?
I can see that Mr. Nester is fluent in the language of Love which is the hallmark of Christianity, and mark of a true Christian. God Bless Glenn Beck and all those who endeavor to uphold the basic human values upon which all fruitful civilizations are built. I would have been not only a humble and Blessed Catholic if I had been able to attend the Restoring Honor Ralley, but also a proud American to stand along side Glenn Beck in this magnificant tribute to our founding principles.
If you listen to the Glenn Beck show he spews out hate and racisism. His rally he put on a differant act. The guy is a mental case like I said do a seardh on him on the internet. Like the Bible says "wolves in sheeps clothing". The rich and wealthy willl lie at any cost to have power and get more wealth. Sarah Paulin is another of these ex catholics that's nut case. Watch the lies on his show. By the way lieiing is a sin even if your a morman.
I was raised in an alcoholic family, and know only to well the weakness of communication skills and ineffective means to address conflict, in particular, with emotional overtones. In watching "Women of Grace" on EWTN Monday-Friday, one is informed of so many wonderful ministries pouring forth from the Holy Spirit to address the decline of our culture as it falls apart. For instance, whereas in the past persons from my type background bore the brunt of inability to trust, making it very difficult to forgive, in recent years the effects of divorce and being raised in homes without a father dwarf the prior circumstances mentioned. While I pray every day for good persons such as Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin to return home and see the inconsistency of much of their understanding (e.g., contraception, contraceptive mentality and consistent objective moral ethics), how are we ever to aid them in the journey home with bitter vinegar? More to the point, I have to wonder if the underlying reason so many vent their anger behind elements that may possess truth are often the unresolved reasons stated in the first paragraph. Yes, it is an act of charity to speak the truth; but that can be quite difficult when we are so wounded that harsh anger taps out sideways because of a similarity to other possible unresolved, unconscious memories. I recommend: http://www.maritalhealing.com/ and http://www.childhealing.com/ as possible sources to begin the process of forgiveness and healing.
1. Thank you Dr. Lee for accepting to speak at the Divine Destiny event, and thank you Catholic Advocate for your coverage of the Rally's events. 2. Thanks be to God for all the good people who formed, worked, supported and attended these events. 3. Thanks be to God for our military and the Special Operations Warriors Foundation. Thanks be to God for a clarion call to His peace, love, understanding and justice. 2. Quite so, we are to remove the beam out of our own eye before we attempt to remove the splinter out of another's. Correct, charity is not only money, but also teaching and correction, in love. How can we judge the hearts of people like Mr. Hagee and Mr. Beck? Who can judge how the Holy Spirit is to work in other peoples' lives? Aren't we taught to love our enemies? Did not Jesus tell us we would suffer in His name? Was not St. Peter taught that he was not to judge what was unclean, but that the Lord made all clean? Upon their return from captivity, weren't the Israelites offered help from their enemies to rebuild the Temple? Is it not possible that the Israelites' lack of charity and hospitality towards them was instrumental in the delays and problems in rebuilding the Temple? Once again, will we not learn from history?
This United States of America is about to fall apart as a result of divisive policies over the last 100 years. Have you not read "Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals?" This is intentional to weaken our Great Nation. "United We Stand! Divided We Fall!" From reading some of the comments, it seems as though this wonderful Catholic Church has been contaminated by the same divisiveness. People!! Do you not realize that we are way past the point of belaboring our differences. As a "Returning Catholic" I am absolutely convinced that we, by God's Grace, have been brought to this point in time. HE is showing us our own smallness within the Church. Love Is The Answer. Let's all examine ourselves, removing the logs from our own eyes. Let's join together with Respect and Kindness to "Restore Honor" and bring the United States of America back to the "Shining Light On The Hill."
I AM VERY PROUD OF THE ATTENDANCE OF CATHOLICS AT BECK'S RALLY. MR. BECK IS ATTACKED BECAUSE OF THE TRUTH HE SPEAKS. JUST LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CURRENTLY UNDER SUCH PERSECUTION. WHAT IS THE MANHATTAN DECLARATION? ALL CHRISTIANS UNITED. THANK YOU, PATRICK, FOR YOUR INVOLVEMENT. TOGETHER WE SHALL OVERCOME.
Dear John you pointed out "Even a broken clock is right twice a day for a nanosecond...." - a clock that thinks it is not broken but is even a bit fast or slow, only keeps correct time once a day. "A broken and contrite heart oh God, thou wilt not despise"
I think Ed missed the point about the Restoring Honor Rally - it was designed to bring people together, not divide them into categories of who believes what, but, rather, find the fundamental principles that can unite us all. As for the host, Glenn Beck, yes, he has made his mistakes and admits that to his audience on a regular basis. I'm a big fan of redemption. Sadly, there are many "former Catholics" in our country - before we can take the toothpick out of their eyes, we must remove the log from ours. John Hagee may be another individual you don't agree with, but isn't there even a little room for discussion, debate and/or discourse? In my opinion, this rally provides a point where we can return to the basics and re-open the channels of communication on the specifics - a return to faith, morals, values, and God is imperative if we desire to keep our individual freedom and liberty that He bestowed upon us. Is your faith perfect enough that you are in a position to sit in judgment? Because mine is not - I question, I falter, I even fail and I thank God for redemption, deeper understanding through meditation, and further appreciation and love for all other people. Additionally, it saddens me that you would choose to make a collective, negative comment on any group of people the way you did about the Fox Network. I don't know any of them personally, but I choose to appreciate they are using the skills and abilities God gave them, whether I agree with them or not.
Catholic Online can try as hard as it wishes to paper over the ugly facts about the leader of this rally and other current American right-wing gurus, but the truth will come out. As I have said before, Beck and Palin are both formal heretics, people whom we should shun, not idolize. You say they agree with some of the social and moral teachings of the Catholic Church? Even a broken clock is right twice a day for a nanosecond, but that's still no reason to buy it. Ditto for the intellectual trash being hawked by these four-flushers.
Dear Deacon, I was/am disappointed at the negative comments made towards Glenn Beck because of his Mormon apostasy from the true faith. His rally was on "Faith, Hope and Charity" which are the theological virtues. Clearly God is working on Glenn and he needs our prayers, not slander - perhaps if Catholics practiced more Charity (which includes more than just money), Glenn wouldn't have fallen into the LDS trap in the first place.
Glenn Beck please google this guy. A drug addict and a college drop out. A moron with no beliefs. Once was a Catholic now a member of the Morman Cult. They don't even believe that Jesus was God. It's a insult to have a picture of this nut case on a Catholic site. John Hagee was at his rally a fundalmentalist that calls the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon. The Catholic League called Hagee on this. The whole Fox Network is a bunch pathological idiots.
What a wonderful article, every bit of it, from beginning to end! Thanks be to God!
The Restoring Honor Rally was truly amazing! What a wonderful message for people of all faiths to put their differences aside and agree that God needs to be returned to His righteous place as the One that gives us liberty and freedom. What a wonderful way to start re-educating ourselves with the truth about what our founders intended this great nation to be. We must work together, as Christians of all faiths, to restore honor and integrity, moral and values, and a strong belief that we are all humans, and we can love one another, whether we agree or disagree, as Christians.