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Paul Ryan and Joe Biden: A Tale of Two Catholics? Comments

Given Joe Biden's support for what his Church has identified as intrinsic evils - and thereby persistently against the common good - and given Paul Ryan's position consistent with the indisputable and unchangeable teachings of his Church on these issues, it seems that what is involved is not a "Tale of Two Catholics" but rather a tale of one Catholic and one . . . well, whatever we call him, it is something considerably less than ... Continue Reading

31 - 40 of 70 Comments

  1. Judy Claar
    2 years ago

    css. Steve, Nathan & Rob: Quit trying to bring up (in order to confuse?) that you have a Valid point about the "two tickets of intrinsic evil", so that in Catholic conscience, you do not have to vote. You do not have a Valid point. And I refer you to Bill Sr., posts of Common Sense, knowledge and wisdom, among others.
    I do not know your True motive of mind. I am Not judging here. I am responding to your words as they came across to my mind... and evidently to Bill Sr., among others as well . So with all due respect, to all of you, I will plainly Disagree, that "we have two intrinsic evils, so we may not vote. Poppycock! Or better yet, NONSENSE!
    The Dems are the Party of Death: Abortion, Sterilization, Euthanasia, etc. The Reps. are Pro-Life!!! (minus your rape and incest). IS This NOT A FAR CRY from what the Dems propose!
    It does not take much to figure the answer. It is Common Sense!
    To say that You will not vote because of that, is preposterous! Especially when You know that a NO VOTE IS A VOTE FOR OBAMA!

    This is why, in my humble opinion, Our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, called our country "DEMONIC"; in the hands of Satan. Modernism. Secularism. Socialism. Relativism!

    Brother and Sisters of CO, please use a Common Sense Vote when voting. I might add, that the Dem party is not a party of Faith. The Reps are a party of Faith, Hope and Love. How can one vote for Obama? Or. the EXCUSE of not at all? when your vote, will more than likely go to Obama if you do not vote Rep.
    I Know either party is not perfect. But Common Sense thinking and prayerful thoughts, will find you at the R/R booth this election.

    Let us build ourselves up in the meantime, with sisterly and brotherly Christian Love. I will pray for Clarity of Understanding. O, what things have been wrought by Love! Blessings...

  2. JoAnn
    2 years ago

    ccs: The official Church stance is that we vote for the candidate that is closest to the teachings of the Church. Dems. = abortion on demand in all instances = 100% against Church teachings. GOP = abortion only if rape or incest or life of mother - 1% against Chruch teachings. No contest. Vote GOP. God bless.

  3. Jeremy
    2 years ago

    Thank God we finally have a ticket we can believe in. I was a bit disappointed when Bush did seemingly very little to finally overturn Roe vs Wade. We all voted for the guy but abortions didn't decline at any faster rate than under Clinton. I am sick of our country slipping into a moral cesspool. I appalled at the corruption in Washington. I am offended that my taxes will create tax breaks for others, or help the needy, or buy more military. I am offended with drugs and abortion. I am offended when people lie on their taxes or drive over the speed limit. I am appalled that people use the self-check out line with more than 15 items. I am offended at insurance and welfare fraud. I am so glad I can just cast my vote, Mitt will win, and all these things will disappear into the sunset when he makes them all illegal. Bush ran on a platform to end abortions and swindled us all into voting for him instead of working to create a culture where abortion is unacceptable, but we were duped. I am glad to vote for Mitt, because I know abortion will be his top priority and he will succeed where no one else can.

  4. Brian English
    2 years ago

    "therefore not scalable, as you have tried to do."

    But it is scalable. One party suppports over 1 million abortions a year, and seeks to increase its availability. The other would permit about 10,000 per year, and only under horrendous circumstances.

    " Does the Church allow us to vote for the lesser-of-two-intrinsic-evils? - "

    There are voter guides on the USCCB website. I also highly recommend Archbishop Chaput's book, Render Unto Caesar.

    "Has the Pope spoken to this issue?"

    Not since he became Pope as far as I am aware of. However, as Cardinal Ratzinger, he wrote this letter to the American Bishops:

    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6041&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=292724

    It primarily deals with politicians receiving communion, but there is a note at the end that states that a Catholic can vote for a politician who supported an intrinsic evil if (1) he or she does not vote for the candidate specifically because of that support; and (2) the voter has proportionate reasons. For instance, while you object to the GOP exceptions for rape and incest, I would argue that a proportionate reason to still vote for that ticket is that Obama/Biden does not support any restrictions on abortion.

  5. Esther Marie Ventura Ferencz
    2 years ago

    @CCS just to clarify. The church has long maintained as far as I can recall, its a DUTY of all citizens to VOTE. Catholics included.

    And the Church states specifically to vote the lesser of 2 evils. Now if both are equally evil? Well we can chat this back and forth forever. You do get the gist now?

    Evil has abounded always. Just that it does appear in our times the devil is having a field day...sorta like a last hurrrrrrah before the Lord shows up and takes him and his minions OUT.

  6. Firmness
    2 years ago

    I think the major thing we need is freedom to practice our religious beliefs and doctrines. If we vote for any party that would not force the church to bless gay union or to pay for abortion, and abortifacients, and contraceptives in the guise of health insurance for all, then we can go back to the drawing board; then our Hierarchy and pastors should emphasis more on the cathechesis, then we will be able groom a new generation Christians that will go into public offices to defend strongly the faith. Then the family values will be instill in our children, without the government pretending to be protect the children while restricting parents to instill discipline in their children. Then our people will be sane, and moral values will be standards once again. Vote against any party forcing christian institutions to pay for abortion and contraceptives. Vote against any government that limits religious freedom in the guise of health for all. vote against any government or party that promotes men being irresponsible by chosen abortion escapists' route. Vote against any government or party that declares war against women and children in the guise of reproductive rights, cos they promise no future, they lead us into extinction.
    Religion of a president has nothing to do with his subject if the government promotes religious freedom. The Pagan King Cyrus in Isaiah 45 was empowered by God to liberate his people Israel. History is about to repeat itself.

  7. Kasoy
    2 years ago

    Final Note from me: I have only 2 choices: Vote GOP or I don't vote. I don't vote = 1 vote more for Dems = one less vote for GOP. This may be one instance you may consider to choose the lesser evil.

  8. ccs
    2 years ago

    @Brian English - You are putting words in my mouth.

    What I think is that we should start discussing what the official Church stance is on dealing with two tickets that support intrinsic evil - and that we should stop pretending that the Romney-Ryan ticket is free of intrinsic evil (even 1% of abortions is still an intrinsic evil). Since intrinsic evil is always a grave moral evil and is always wrong, then it is reasonable to assume that the number assigned to even a single intrinsic evil is always infinity - and is therefore not scalable, as you have tried to do.

    So my question is: what IS the Church's official position when intrinsic evil =/= 0? Does the Church allow us to vote for the lesser-of-two-intrinsic-evils? - or perhaps the better way to put it would be the FEWER-of-intrinsic-evils, since there really is no "lesser" when it comes to intrinsic evil. (Cardinal O'Connor would say yes, we can vote for the fewer-of-intrinsic-evils, but he also stated that his guidance was a personal opinion, not an official stance of the Church).

    I'm looking for an objective standard of measurement that the Church will support, so that I can vote in good conscience. Has the Pope spoken to this issue? If so, can somebody provide a link? My question is an honest one, and I don't understand why we are not willing to talk about it. I authentically want to know the answer and am serious enough about finding the answer that I wrote to Archbishop Lori to find out.

    Just for the record: voting for Obama is NOT on the table. However, I also reject the binary (IL)logic that states that NOT Republican = Democrat. If the Church says never to vote for any intrinsic evil ever, then that means not voting Democrat or Republican in this election. If the Church says vote for the fewer-of-intrinsic-evils, then that means voting for Romney-Ryan. This is why I am trying to discover if there is a position on this question that the Church will stand behind.

  9. Brian English
    2 years ago

    "Brian, I'm not sure it matters. So long as we leave the door open to the evil, it will remain. We can't provide exceptions because when we do that means that the apparatus to provide them will be there as well. Nothing changes. We've had 40 years of that. It only get's worse."

    If you prohibit 99% of the abortions, you eliminate the profit motive and the apparatus collapses.

    This also goes beyond what we believe as Catholics, and becomes an issue of what kinds of laws we can get passed. A law with no exceptions would be much more difficult, if not impossible, to pass. I don't think we should decline to save any just because we can't save all.

  10. John Mainhart
    2 years ago

    Lovely souls especially Adella who gave me a lovely picture of how we should react to the blessing of a new conception.
    These heartfelt missles did not ease my mind because I am 80 and have seen politics and studied our history all my life. I too was somewhat enamoured by Romney's choice for V.P. for much of the same reasons as you. But I see his decision to compromise on the abortion issaue as more of the same. I believe that the leadership of the Republican Party refuses to see issues in our society as moral or ethical ones and I sincerely believe Ryan was picked to help them win and they have no intention of listening to his values if they are elected. I don't think the Republicans are as extreme as the Democratic leadership on ,intrinsic evils but I do not believe they will right this ship They will spend all their time creating jobs and helping their friends to export jobs so capitalism as we define it to day, lacking moral fiber, flourishes in the world. Americans in general will not be happy with such a result and they will react by putting someone , perhaps as bad as Obama, in office again.
    A more important disturbing aspect about the present political scene is the fact that Ryan did not stand up for his values when something he wanted was at stake. About five years AGO i JOINED THE "MANHATTAN DECLARATION" ,WITH ABOUT 80 THOUSAND OTHER SOULS AND WE PLEDGED NOT TO0 COMPROMISE OUR INDIVIUDUAL CONSCI9ENCE OVER A MORAL ISSUE NO MATTER WHAT THE COST TO US INDIVIDUALLY.
    i PRAYED THAT RYAN WOULD DO THAT. iF WE ARE NOT WILLING TO SACRIFICE INDIVIDUALLY WITH OUR SAVIOR TO DEFEND ATTACKS THAT FURTHER THE ,CAUSE OF INTRINSIC EVILS, THEN i THINK i MAY NOT VOTE UNTILL WE ARE READY.


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