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Doing Good for Goodness Sake? An Atheist's Game of Scrabble Comments

In the order of being, there can be no natural moral law without the existence of God.  In the order of being, implicit in the belief of a natural moral law is the existence of God.  A moral law makes no sense without a Divine Legislator. Continue Reading

11 - 20 of 72 Comments

  1. Judy
    2 years ago

    Juneau Alaska: Mike, I see your points. I believe that Christians that want to depart this world before their time and do so, have had a misunderstanding or mental defect. If one is instructed that way from childhood, then it is the same as incest or abuse being taught. A cycle needing stopped! And no, I would not like to discuss for hours on end w/a fundamentalist...though I would respect him. Is the Royal Science Academy or any science institution, going back to the aristocracy? Thinking that they are peers or lords or nobles, over peasants, commoners or believers? Does there seem to be a certain pride or arrogance from them? I think that That, is what some people might discern from your "cheers". Though, in all humility, we are All suppose to be happy every day. Our God calls us to that, as taught in Today's Homily. We are not to be sad faced either. But Alas, there is human nature. Mike, I must ask you, if you didn't want my credentials, why did you ask? Are we playing games? I assure you, I am Not a game player. My first answer to you was not direct, but rather abstract. Thus, on second consideration, I thought I should be forthright. And in my being authentic to you, I was tossed aside like some left over morsel; a mere believer unworthy to play your game of scramble. This is the "air" that some atheists give. I will say, in all humility and honesty, that I both think and believe It is the atmosphere of arrogance. I say this w/no bias or hurtfulness to myself. My Lord Jesus Christ has instructed me better than that. It would be "emotion" as you say. And I know better. I say this to you, so you can know, from where i coming. Catholics too, know and learn not to let "emotions" get the better of them. It is not a secret unto science. We accept our imperfections. Knowing that by His Grace, and keeping the Commandments, our souls Will Not Just be dust in the ground. Yes, my body, and your body will be dust. But what about souls? Now, this can be a whole new topic...Mythology, souls, psyche, archetype. Jesus' Resurrection was, and is proved dimensional, from a documentary on the History Channel. So my friend, Cheers! Blessings...

  2. Rob
    2 years ago

    Mike, I think what vance is getting at is that our legal system has allowed a very vocal minority to upend the traditions and customs of many. And in some cases by doing so, the government has prevented the free practice of religion. Not everyone has the same degree of respect that you appear to have for different faith traditions. Fundementalist come in all stripes I guess. I hate that the Westboro Baptist Church is associated with Christianity. I'm sure you probably can't understand some actions by groups who call themselves atheist.

  3. Juneau Alaska
    2 years ago

    judy, I see your question. I don't know why atheists may have a closed mind regarding religion. By closed mind I think you mean a refusal to discuss faith-based topics rather than not being intellectually curious in general, I presume. I really can't speak for others. Perhaps some atheists simply find the topic boring. I've read that many members of the National Academy of Sciences (our nation's organization of elite scientific achievers) do find the subject of religion boring. Evidently, the same sentiment is held by the British scientific equivalent, the Royal Society. Certainly one is entitled to that opinion, yes? On the other hand, other (who may be atheist) do lend their formative skills as being expert witnesses when faith and science clash like when creationism is pushed in public schools science curriculums rather than evolution by natural selection. Granted, it's not Catholics pushing creationism, but rather fundamental Christian sects. I don't know, would you find it interesting to spend hours and hours or years chatting with someone who believed the universe was less than 10 thousand years old? Perhaps you'd find it boring too! When you ask, who wouldn't live every day to their fullest, well that's easy. Look at so-called End Times Christians "giving up" in all manners of ways basically wanting to exit this world ASAP so they can get to the real party, I presume. I find that incredibly disheartening particularly when children are forced to go along with their teachings. In closing, judy, I respectfully don't care what your credentials are, this is a simple forum. I place great weight on evidence, not authority, hence I'm usually open to talking with anyone who's got the goods and I would not ask to be treated any differently regarding any of my claims. I love being corrected, it's called learning.-Cheers! ~Mike

  4. Juneau Alaska
    2 years ago

    vance, where did you get the idea that I want you to hide your faith from me? I am on a Catholic site talking with a Catholic (presumably)! That just doesn't wash vance so go pick that bone with someone else because there is no evidence I've ever said such a thing here. Yes, the Constitution protects us from religious tyranny. I don't want a theocracy either (that's probably obvious). In this country, vance, devil worshipers have exactly the same rights as you regarding their peaceful display of symbols (whatever those may be). That's how the system works. Government may not privilege one religion over another (in theory). Here's a key to understanding me, vance. I don't believe in undeserved respect. I also don't like inequality regarding the First Amendment. Did you know vance that it is prohibited in the constitutions of 13 states (last I checked) to hold elected office if the candidate says they are atheist? One can be a Catholic, Wiccan, Deist, Muslim, Satanist, or even a Snake holding Pentecostal preacher, so long as one has faith in a deity, any so-called higher power. Just let that detonate in your brain. If you are reading this sentence already, you may not have paused long enough for the fuse to light. Just think if we still had laws on the books that said blacks can't hold elected office, or women! Of course, these bigoted laws would lose at the Supreme Court if challenged, but why should they have to be challenged (and money/time wasted)! I'll tell you why, politicians in those states are afraid of losing their re-elections by promoting equality for atheists and free thinkers. Well, we are coming out and our demographic represents more people that Mormons, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, combined, and doubled. I wonder if James Madison or Abraham Lincoln would win election today! Anyway, we all go through life on our path vance. I wouldn't presume to know your life's details or desires and I'd rather you not take an interest in my personal life. What we should be able to do, however, is cooperate as Americans to defend First Amendment freedoms so we can afford everyone the same opportunity to pick their own path in life without State/Church discrimination. And don't get me started on the horrible discrimination of atheists in the military who nevertheless rise above bigotry and actually protect the religious rights of those who discriminate! Thank you for the conversation vance, see you around the forum. -Cheers! ~Mike

  5. Judy
    2 years ago

    Juneau Alaska: Mike, I understand you feel that you are alone on this board, but i really do not think that you are. You are just chosen, and responding. Actually, DLL did a remarkable job at the end of his post, in what I would describe or compare, actually call, Extreme atheism. He referred to Only atheists. Likening them to Protestant missionaries...etc. Whereas, I, or my experiences, would have called these personalities, Extreme atheists. It has also been my experience, that some atheists make a Big Deal out of nothing. They want their belief or themselves to be noticed. When will so and so wake up and see their viewpoint? Isn't it too bad how others waste their life and their time? They so want you to join their herd. Think the way they do. But like the Protestant missionaries and the new Reformation Protestants of Europe, who feared and burned images, atheists do not see the True God who is Love. Not that DLL or I, or other Catholics are better, we are just different. We would like To meet on equal ground. Discuss respectfully. But that is not always the case w/extreme atheists. I find that most of these typologies belong to extreme liberalism or more, as far as political persuasion is concerned as well. Of course, most atheists are liberals. That's fine. A lot of my friends are. Though I must admit I wish they weren't. Like DLL, the thing I find perplexing, and maybe you can answer this, is that atheists have a Closed Mind when it comes to religion. I do not understand this. Discussing an archetype/s should not present a problem to one who is intelligent and Open Minded. The only problem I see here is (embarrassment) (ridicule), should one decide to leave one's herd. And yes, I have seen this too. Once. But it took an extreme trigger, such as a death, for it to happen. I think I have > answered your question! Ha! And by the way Mike, I am a B.A. from a combo of two different states. Not much. Especially compared to my kids. But w/Life's experience's, past self-employment, and continued self-taught Ed. that will never quit until my heart stops... I am a Pilgrim on Life's journey. So yes! I live every day to the fullest! As if it were my last! Who wouldn't? "This Is The Day The Lord Has Made! Let Us Rejoice and Be Glad In It! Remember the words of Joesph Campell: What is a thought
    but a prayer, or, What is a prayer but a thought. Blessings...

  6. Vance
    2 years ago

    Mike Juneau Alaska, A theocracy is what the Constitution of the United States defends against. It says congress will make no law creating a state religion. The Church of England was and still is the official government religion. No, I do not want a Government Religion. I DO NOT want government to get in my way of exercising my religious beliefs. If I were a speaker at a Graduation Ceremony and I said, "I thank God and Jesus Christ that I graduated" and that OFFENDED you, tough shishkabob. If I wear a cross to work or public school and that OFFENDS you, again, tough shishkabob. I refuse to hide my faith for you. If a city council votes to have a Nativity Scene on the City Hall front lawn, it stays there. Yes, I've heard the argument about letting other religions have a display. Fine, as long as they are respectful. No, the Devil Worshipers can take it somewhere else. We Catholics and Christians need to stand up for our beliefs and take it to the anti-Christ ACLU and their their anti-Christian Hack Judges on the bench.

  7. DLL
    2 years ago

    Mike:Juneau Alaska: I didn't think I would write again but here goes. "Religious Faith negatively impacts the life of my family and I would be remiss as a citizen not to speak up against it from time to time". How So ! Explain and use facts! That is a statement that comes from a severely wounded individual.Religion does not make me feel impacted one way or the other unless a particular group of fanatics,religious or otherwise, would use that as a reason to act with violence against myself or my family,friends, or my country. You have a polytheistic concept of gods as worshiped by many different kinds of nationalities over a long period of human history. Were you sexually abused or a member of your family by religious ?if so I am sincerely sorry for you. Polytheism is as diverse in the concept of there being many gods, as there are many atheists with many different reasons for being an atheist. Personally I don"t have a commission from Jesus to write on this website or any other. I am trying to let you see the beauty that I see as a Catholic Christian encountering Christ. The Ku God of Hawaii,once worshiped,is just a carved image and nothing else,simply a quaint artifact at best,folklore. The people on this website are not some sort of a cannibal trying to broil ,boil or fry atheists because they don't understand Catholics,in particular,who believe in "One God",not every god that came down the pike,as a product of some primitive peoples trying to make sense of a world,that was difficult for them to understand. We are relating experience as opposed to ideas. The ideas are old,it is these ideas that we accept or reject to help explain to others why we think as we do. I have related my personal Catholic perspective and you and you your anti-god one to me. I have more friends that are atheist like you than Christian friends actually. Religion or atheistic beliefs don't scare or bother me,emotionally,but Religion is the issue no one should ever talk about? That is THE MISTAKE OF THIS AGE as God is real to many different people and with many different personal understandings of GOD,or god,right or wrong. God can be someones idea of supreme good or of many evil,devious,mean and angry gods,who must be fed human sacrifices as those gods can never be satisfied. We live in a cultural world of different cultures. The carved ku god image sold in Hawaii is no graven image as the natives sell it as a form of art. In the same place where those are sold one can buy a koa cross,crucifix or rosary,all called "religious symbols" so what! I am not like many of todays atheists scared of them and where they might be seen in public. Who Cares. They are cultural and religious items representing diverse cultures old and new. They are educational as they represent the times and cultures,that have now passed,they are apart of many stories about people and their ideas over time. Atheists are now like the old protestant missionaries who had to burn all pagan images as sacrilegious,but today they must have removed from public all religious,specifically Christian symbols or images. Explain the atheistic morality and reasoning of that coarse of action,that is RELIGIO-PHOBIC ISN'T IT? Use facts,be specific,explain your fear of religion and the specific impact on you and your family. Thanks for the info about Alaska, have seen the snow in Hawaii. Cheers! The One True God Is Calling You Friend! Stop resisting!

  8. Juneau Alaska
    2 years ago

    judy, you're welcome. You wrote a longish post with lots of speculations and I'm afraid my reply won't be able to address all of them. I just have to ask, what on earth do you mean by extreme atheism? Are those atheists who really, really, really, really don't see any evidence for gods? Here comes that tide again (swimming against), I think you mean something else besides actual atheism, perhaps a particular organization? judy, you bring up an excellent point to clarify when you talk about hope and death. Please think about what I am going to say: atheists believe in life before death. At least I do! I try to make the best of each day realizing how lucky I am to be here! Regarding universal human experiences like despair, etc., there was a recent survey done by a world respected research company, Ipsos MORI in the UK, that asked people who specifically identified as Christians on their 10 year census (their census asks religion unlike the US census) who they turned to when faced with serious moral questions. Their first response was their own innate sense of right or wrong. The second response was their friends and relations. Only 10% of the Christians surveyed said they would turn to their religion. Now granted, most of those Christians are not Catholic, they are COE, but I think it's an interesting factual outcome nonetheless. I mention this because of course, judy, I would turn to my own friends and relations during hard times, like most others I presume! But in the end, since you brought up the topic, I think a quote from Nobel Laureate George Bernard Shaw says it better than I: "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than a drunken man is happier than a sober one." I hope this quote gets past the censor, it's not really advocating improper behavior just an analogy. Anyway, it's been great chatting. I'm a bit surprised that comments take so long to post here, if the moderation was faster, we might really have a long conversation. -Cheers! ~Mike

  9. Juneau Alaska
    2 years ago

    vance, being offended for the sake of being offended is one thing, being offended because of illegal acts is quite another. Religion is unconstitutional when given privileged status by the state (in this country [the only country in the world with a formal separation of State and Church]) and secular Catholics are quite right to have it stamped out of that realm. Yes, there are Catholics as well as Jews, Jains, Native American faiths, Buddhists and atheists who work together to defend the 1st Amendment in court as that is how our system operates. You never did answer my two-part theocracy question. Do you want the US to be a theocracy and which religion should be in charge? Moreover, if you don't, why not? -Cheers! ~Mike

  10. judy
    2 years ago

    Juneau Alaska:.con't. page #2: Mike, in a round about way, i have answered perhaps abstractly to you, part of your question. I have also chosen not to "drop" the discussion on the differences of atheists, as it is my opinion, that it is clear, that since atheism is growing as you say, Catholics > ever, need to dialogue. Not only that, Catholics must not fear atheism, but remain steadfast. Forgive me here, while I interject to my group or herd: Today's Reading... We must be like Paul. A disciple of Christ. Beaten and thrown out of town for dead by non-believers, getting up, and walking away w/his friend, only to return the next day full steam ahead. Disciple=Discipline. As we know, Paul was Saul. Saul, a Roman who watched in the stoning of the first martyr St. Stephen. Saul did not believe. He persecuted Christians until, his vision of Christ, and then he became blind, and was healed. And because "he saw and heard Christ" he believed. And he could preach, because of his experience. He was a non-believer, now Witness, because he Saw and Heard Christ. A disciple w/discipline. One w/the of Courage of Faith, Hope and Love. And the greatest of these is Love. Thank you Mike, for that pause... To succinctly answer your question in black and white. I both think and know through experience, and that of others, that colleges have played a large part in both extreme secularism and atheism. Two class topics that are particular snags are: Science and Mythology. This subject matter, when taught in public school, can have an impact on young minds as early elementary school. The books are planned to reinforce, as all good books should be...but not w/a subtle atheist viewpoint! Parents have not been aware of this...who the author is, what they believe etc. Anyway Mike, mix abstract answer #2 w/College and subject matter, plus sprinkle a bit of ego, not wanting to be alone, wanting to be accepted, wanting to do good, having one's own way w/o breaking the law, and I think you might get an atheist who belongs to a group or herd. Where did I study? My dear Watson, haven't you been observing? Observation w/my many books and experiences are everything! Do you really need more? And as for a copyright on Love in religion, you give me way too much credit my dear fellow! And finally, as for sentiments as you call them, are merely the Truth. I will be so happy when you can take a bit of time to indulge in them yourself. They are so much > than mere trivia. With that I shall conclude, adding that Science would not be here in the first place if it were not for God. Science, is God's science. Every time a new discovery is made, I marvel at how Great He is.

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