Opinion: Is 'Occupy Wall Street' an opportunity for Christians? Comments
Say what you will about Occupy Wall Street (OWS). Say that it's a communist movement, or that it's financed by the very same establishment it appears to criticize. Say that it's anti-American, anti-freedom, and anti-church. Say that it's filled with anarchists. Say that it's going to be short-lived. But regardless of what critics say, the movement should cause us to stop and think. Continue Reading
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Rob: First of all, I would tend to agree with you in regards to the corruptive influences of money upon our political leaders, regardless of party affiliation. It would seem that you are looking for that kind of politician that John Adams indicated he was, to wit: "Such compliances ... of my honor, my conscience, my friends, my country, my God, as the Scriptures inform us must be punished with nothing less than hell-fire, eternal torment; and this is so unequal a price to pay for the honors and emoluments ... that I cannot prevail upon myself to think of it. The duration of future punishment terrifies me. If I could but deceive myself so far as to think eternity a moment only, I could comply and be promoted." Where in Washington or the states for that matter is that kind of political leader today? Secondly, I agree with you that a renewal of faith personally, and in the public square is required. The latter is gaining ground.
JoAnn: Humbly, you're welcome. Before I get back to Rob on unemployment I wanted to agree with you on the "progressives." Within a day or two of your comment on them I got a catalogue in the mail that I've never received before. It's titled "Northern Sun (www.northernsun.com); "with a subtitle of "Products for Progressives since 1979." Don't know why it was sent to me other than their assumption that because my wife has to be a member of the musician's union in order to play music and run her business that she must then necessarily agree with their views. The catalogue is rife with Leninist, Maoist, Che, and other socialist material. The dots are easily connected between "progressive" and socialist. It also contains a great amount of insulting parodies of Christian symbols and beliefs. It offers a "fish" symbol with the word "PAGAN" in it. In fact the cover has a sun with the "dove and olive branch" in it in the manner of usurping the symbol for the "Holy Spirit." How any Catholic or Christian could embrace socialism or "socialistic" programs in even the slightest manner given their obvious pagan and/or anti-Christian bent is beyond me. Catholics who do, forget or ignore what Pope Pius XI said in Quadresimo Anno: "No one can be at the same time a sincere Catholic and a true socialist."
Rob; "Me thinks thou dost protest too much." You seem to me to be an intelligent and fair minded person so I'm surprised that you are taking what I have written to you and this thread so lightly. As a matter of fact, you dismiss it as fantasy. It is almost as if you KNOW it is true and are trying to distract me and this thread away from the truth. When I was presented with the info that I passed on to you, I was skeptical too. BUT I researched it on my own out of curiosity. To my dismay, I find the info to be frightenly factual. One book of many that I read was written by Obama himself. It is his own words that condemn him. The protestors on Wall Street and around this country and world have been orchestrated by very powerful people for the distinct purpose of collapsing America's system of Capitalism. I don't see them in front of George Soros' house protesting. He made $8 billion dollars just last year on his hedge funds, etc. He's super rich, why isn't anyone protesting against him. You really go out of your way to defend him. And the anti-semitism is dangerously growing. My friend, you can do what you want with the info. It is entirely up to you. Just consider yourself alerted to the facts that half this country already knows. God bless and God help us all.
The Church is supposed to stand with the poor against the powerful elites, but it's falling down on the job. For all that you are griping and complaining about whether the protesters of OWS are Christian, or anti-Christian, or socialist or anti-free market or what have you, the only reason they're there is that the Church is not.
If America's Catholics were willing to bother to stand up and fight for justice for the poor and downtrodden, there never would have been an OWS because it wouldn't have been needed. But it seems most of us would rather stand around and gripe about the people who are taking a stand rather than take one ourselves.
Perhaps we're aware that for affluent Catholics, the power structure they're trying to change benefits us. If that's the case, if we're willing to countenance a system that keeps the rich rich and the poor poor for the sake of maintaining our own lifestyles, maybe we need to re-examine our commitment to Christ.
Kathy, much as I agree with you nevertheless money doesn't grow on trees so how are we to feed our children, pay our bills & have a roof over our heads. People are without jobs which means no $$ so they have nothing that's why they're protesting. When one can't even have at least the basic necessities in life then something is truly wrong & I'm not talking about luxury items which we can live without.
I doubt a "third Party" would help us for the poor shape were in.... I suspect all it would do is divide us into 3 camps at the voting booth, rather than 2. Which is worse? I fear we have come to the point of our demise as the Great Nation we once really were--And yes, abortion and her "wicked sisters" have brought us down. "How can a nation survive that kills its children?" I fear our President, he has extended abortion way beyond the limits (which was, even so, one too many allowance) and is, indeed, a first-class "Community Organizer".... I hope we don't have riots across the country--like Greece, etc.... Lots of people are concerned, very concerned-- that means pray, Pray, PRAY!
Pete Brady: Thank you!
Pete, I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers for 2004, but for 2008 election cycle the landscape has changed dramtically. Open secrets.org has some good interactive charts and the contributions by sector tell what I see in our own company's PAC. They are going to donate to whomever is going to support them...and they will support whomever they believe will win. And I don't know what is worse, is it the fact that they spend so much money on our politicians, or is it that we allow it? I suspect that if you change your focus to the GOP, you are going to find the same darn thing. Again, 2008 list of rich candidates looks a little different when you look at the House and Senate. But I think you are assuming that I'm pro dem. The reason that tax rates continue to fall when you've had Dem control, is that they serve the same corporate masters. They can scream and yell all they want about taxing the rich, but they don't fight for it and it won't ever happen. Why the heck would they because as you so rightfully point out, they are shills just the same. I don't disagree with you, the dems are the party of socialism and abortion. No disputing that and because of abortion I haven't voted for a dem in years. But if we are defining socialism by the support of entitlement programs for the masses, then we need to come up with a term that describes the amount of money that we've funneled to the rich and powerful. Maybe it's not socialism, but it's defintely having the same effect. Bottomline, they bribe the poor with entitlements and they rob us for the benefit of the rich. It wasn't the poor's 401K that was decimated when Wall Street scrwed up, it was ours! You and I lost, but the powerful didn't. We bailed them out. Pete, I know where you are coming from in regards to the dems, but if you invest the time, you can generate the same darn list for the GOP and it will have the same result, not one penny of it benefits you and I. Every elected official in office is a schill or grossly incompentent. It's the only thing that explains where we are. Everything that has happend has always benefitted those who pay for the government they want. And now that the Supreme Court has blessed unlimited spending, it will only get worse. I don't even know why the heck we vote anymore.
Rob: I don't think I'm going to have the time today, or maybe even tomorrow, to answer your question: "otherwise why the unemployment?" I'd like to address that when I get the time in a couple days. But I would like to address your concern about regulating Wall Street. That was the purpose of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, was it not? It gave the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) sweeping new powers. And, once again, those identified as the "culprits" benefitted and those who did not offend, the small banks, were targeted. Many times in this forum I have heard blanket condemnations of the "rich and wealthy," that they care only for themselves and never for those in poverty. Well, the folly of the Dodd-Frank Act provides an example of the opposite. And the harm done by it. It is the story of Park National Bank, in the heart of Obama country - the Chicago suburb of Oak Park; it is just one of several told in the book, "Revolt," by Dick Morris and his wife, Eileen McGann. That bank was one of nine owned by a fella by the name of Michael Kelly. His profits went to philanthropy. His profit went to help the poor. He did not pay himself dividends. Rather, he provided assistance to schools, parks, affordable housing, social services, and community organizations. He refused to make sub-prime loans. Instead, according to inthesetimes.com, he provided, banking services to "predominately black Chicago neighborhoods otherwise served only by predatory payday lenders and currency exchanges." His banking group got into trouble when Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac got into trouble; and it cost his banks half their holdings. The Treasury Department charged to the rescue, offering $545 million in TARP funds as part of a small bank loan. But then, of a sudden, Treasury reneged and would not process the TARP loan. The $600 million in "private capital" commitments Kelly had rounded up went away because of TARP backing down. Still, Park National remained profitable but then the FDIC invoked an "optional rule" (used only six times in two decades) to make Kelly's two strongest banks liable for the remaining banks in his group. The FDIC issued its warning, "you have 90 days to meet capital requirements." With the deadline drawing close Kelly's bank group presented its plan to the FDIC, asking for the usual common courtesy of a week's extension to "finalize the details." Both Kelly and the FDIC knew that in a week's time Obama was going to sign a tax relief package for "loss carryovers" that would provide Kelly's group with upwards of an additional $200 million benefit to his plan. The FDIC did not wait. The FDIC had already cut a deal to sell all of Kelly's bank group's assets to 6th largest U.S. bank, U.S.Bancorp. The deal was sealed with a $2.5 billion subsidy from America's "taxpayers." And the "good guy," the "rich" guy who helped the "poor" lost. So did the American taxpayer, now on the hook subsidizing the "BIG" bank that Dodd-Frank was suppose to "regulate." And as a final note, the real "insult to injury" - bright and early on October 30, 2009 Obama's Treasury (the same Treasury that had backed down on the TARP loan) Secretary, Tim Geither, went to Chicago, held a press conference to honor Park National Bank for its public service, and to give it a $50 million "tax credit" so that it could expand its community development work; BUT, too late, later on that VERY SAME DAY the FDIC seized Park National Bank and turned it over to U.S.Bancorp. Perhaps "regulating" over and over again isn't the thing to do.
Once again this has all turned on Obama. I do not disagree that the bailouts Bush initiated and Obama continued were a mistake. The the stimulus program did not work as well as everyone hoped it would. However, to say Obama is trying to fiscally destroy the country is just completely far fetched. Wall street caused the loss of $17 trillion dollars!!! This was not folks with bad credit getting homes, this was Wall Street greed. JoAnn, I appreciate your posts, but you are just glossing over this and you are way too focused on this George Soros conspiracy to see what is happening right in front of you. These guys on Wall Street could care less about George Soros or the Koch brothers or whatever billionaire of the moment is trying to advance his personal agenda. They only care about the price of that stock or security that will churn a profit. Since we failed to instill any sort of protections, I guarantee you these guys are already working on the next bubble. Giving home loans to folks that couldn't afford is not what brought this economy to the brink of extinction. It was the CDO's that spread like cancer throughout the entire world economy. And this was done with folks from both sides of the aisle, namely Senator Phil Gramm from Texas who is now a Vice President with UBS (talk about fraud), Bill Clinton, Dodd, Frank and every sitting President, Representative and Senator that watched this thing grow and did nothing. But again, all I'm hearing about is a rant about Obama. This sort of half hearted "we hold our own accountable" is not flying because we are going to leave in place, untouched I might add, the very people who are trying to advance these sick agendas. The public is so focused on progressive agendas and conservative agendas, taking the country back etc, that we just don't see that it's all a ruse. The only thing that is happening is that while we are arguing back and forth over basically nothing, they have opened up the vault and are just wheeling out the cash. And the sad thing is that we are letting them do it. Maybe a lot of those kids have no idea what they are protesting, heck, you need a PHD from MIT to understand our financial intruments these days, but they know something is terribly wrong. And again, we are going to focus on the fringe instead of asking ourselves what is going on around us. I know, I know, George Soros is trying to get us. Geez.